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    <title>Apologetics</title>
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    <updated>2008-07-01T11:00:21Z</updated> 
    <id>tag:vox.com,2006:6p00cd972709dd4cd5/</id> 
    <subtitle>&quot;Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you&quot; - 1 Peter 3:15</subtitle>  
    
    <entry>
        <title>the truth about cain and abel</title>   
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        <published>2008-06-27T21:02:12Z</published>
        <updated>2008-07-01T11:00:21Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Nick</name>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">Both men, you’ll remember, offer sacrifices to God.&#160; Cain’s is an offering of crops, whereas Abel offers a blood sacrifice.&#160; God likes Abel’s offering but rejects Cain’s.&#160; Cain, angry, kills Abel.&#160; Taken as a simple historical narrative, the story yields little.&#160; We don’t learn <span style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">why </span>God prefers flesh to fauna.&#160; God comes across as both bloodthirsty and ungrateful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The standard moral of the story? Don&#39;t kill your brother just because God doesn&#39;t like your prize-winning marrows.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">It’s only when we begin to speculate about the wider significance of the story that things get interesting.</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">The anthropologist Rene Girard, for example, thinks that the story is about the original meaning and function of sacrifice, namely the channeling (and therefore the containment) of violence in human societies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>As modern ethology has shown, thwarted violence always seeks a surrogate victim, and so in societies that (unlike ours) don’t have centralised, powerful, theoretically impartial judiciaries and police forces, acts of violence can lead to orgies of recrimination, intractable blood feuds, geometric escalations of bloodshed.&#160; Violence is like a plague, and in order to contain it, societies have treated those things associated with violence as taboo.&#160; Girard’s overwhelmingly powerful argument is that blood sacrifice, in all tribal societies throughout history, has served as a means by which communities’ pent-up violence can be discharged in a ritually contained manner.&#160; The positing of ‘gods’ as beneficiaries of the blood sacrifice essentially conceals the mundane functions of sacrifice from the community, and legitimises the operation.</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">For Girard, the Cain and Abel story – irrespective of whether it refers to an actual historical event – captures the whole meaning of the sacrificial system: Cain’s sacrifice does not involve violence, and so it does not absorb his animosity towards his brother.&#160; His murder of Abel somehow necessitates the formal institution of the violence-limiting sacrificial cult that becomes Hebrew religion, and which God ordains in order to create social order.&#160; (Note that God later claims to hate these sacrifices, which supports the view that sacrifices were a necessary evil.)</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">It could be that stories like that of Cain and Abel encapsulate seismic cultural shifts in microcosmic stories involving a small number of characters who may or may not have also been real historical people.&#160; When we try to force them (for non-biblically warranted reasons) to conform to a straightforwardly ‘historical’ model of truth, we rob them of their vast scope, just as we would if we argued that Jesus’s parables are all literally true.&#160; The irony is that a reading like Girard’s reveals the full historical significance of the bible passage rather than diminishes it.&#160; The story of Cain and Abel is (among many other things) the story of how Judaism – as a matter of historical fact – became, by necessity, and as an act of divine wisdom and mercy, a sacrificial religion.</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">Look&#160;at the story of Abraham and Isaac that Christopher Hitchens finds so morally revolting.&#160; God asks Abraham to kill his own child to prove his faithfulness.&#160; Isaac is then put through a hideous ordeal of thinking his own father is going to stab him to death.&#160; What&#39;s not to like about that?&#160; True, we can read this as an instructive example of someone putting God first and demonstrating faith.&#160; But look: how would we really feel if a faithful, sane Christian at our church turned up one Sunday and confided in a shaky voice that that God had asked him to stab his son to death?&#160; Would we urge him to be faithful?&#160; Would we even think it possible that the man was right in believing that God wanted him to do this?&#160; Heaven forbid!&#160; We would tie the guy to a pew and call the police.</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">What if, like the story of Cain and Abel, the story of Abraham and Isaac captures in <span style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">capsule-form </span>the truth (historical <span style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">and </span>otherwise) of a seismic shift in culture, a new stage in God’s relationship with humans?&#160; We know that many civilisations exalted human sacrifice over non-human sacrifice (even those that didn’t exalt human sacrifice have tended to ‘anthropomorphise’ the animals they sacrificed – see Girard again).&#160; What if the story of Abraham and Isaac describes the momentous revelation that came to the Jewish people, perhaps originally through a real man named Abraham, that the worthiness of a sacrifice depends not on what is killed, but on the inward, personal sacrifice made by the sacrificer?&#160; The story shows, <span style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">in capsule form</span>, the historic shift from a focus on the external form of worship to a focus on the internal motive - a shift that has developed throughout the history of the Jews.&#160; This was the momentous shift that served to preclude human sacrifice from Jewish religion.</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="font-family: times new roman"><span style="COLOR: #333333">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="ecstyle1" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="COLOR: #333333"><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: times new roman">We fundamentalists believe that all scriptural stories are rooted in real encounters between God and real humans: to affirm this is just to affirm the Judeo-Christian tradition.&#160; But the historic changes that occur on the basis of these cataclysmic encounters can be captured in capsule form without diminishing their historicity.&#160; It’s a matter of literary convention.&#160; We can argue for the truth – and yes, the infallibility or inerrancy – of the bible without acting as though it’s nothing but straight reportage.</span></span></p>
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        </content> 
    <category term="bible" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/bible/" label="bible" /> 
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    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>lunchbreak musings: seekers&#39; solidarity</title>   
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        <published>2008-06-26T11:40:04Z</published>
        <updated>2008-07-02T02:21:33Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Nick</name>
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<p>All this online pugilism between Christians of different stripes!&#160; All these forum fencing-matches about free will and predestination and law and grace and evolution and intelligent design and miracles!&#160; All these arguments that might never have arisen if the Good Lord had produced for us a clearer bible, one that really spelled things out!&#160; A catechism, rather than a collection of stories, poems, genealogies, aphorisms...</p>
<p>Why are we so often angry at each other and so seldom irked at God?</p>
<p>Here&#39;s something to think about next time you see an online argument between a Christian who believes in miracles and one who believes that miracles belonged to the time of the apostles (ie a cessationist): </p>
<p>The cessationist has at some point prayed really, really hard for a miracle -&#160;and got diddly squat.&#160; The cessationist is some guy whose cancer didn&#39;t go away, or whose daughter died, or whose wife left, you name it.&#160; And instead of hating God, our cessationist friend has changed theological positions to make room for a God who didn&#39;t come through for him in any clear way.</p>
<p>Want to tell him to believe in miracles?&#160; Good luck!&#160; But don&#39;t rant hatefully at him - he may&#160;not be the dogmatist you think he is.</p>
<p>In every theological argument, you&#39;ll find at least two people who are trying so damned hard to be charitable towards God that they sometimes forget to be charitable towards each other.&#160; But God is sturdy enough to take human anger on the chin.&#160; Humans, on the other hand,&#160;break.</p>
<p>That person who believes in election?&#160; The person who believes in free will?&#160; Scrapping like hoods on some internet discussion board?&#160;&#160;God could have spoken decisively on this issue, and God didn&#39;t.&#160; Or maybe God <em>did</em> speak, through the Church of Rome - in which case,&#160;God should have done a whole lot more to preserve the unity of the church.&#160; And don&#39;t tell me that&#160;the <em>bible </em>is clear on these issues.&#160; There are very brainy and very holy people on both sides of every controversy.</p>
<p>By all means adopt the atheist solution to the problem and deny that God exists.&#160; But if you&#39;re averse to that move, let&#39;s not despise each other over issues on which God has not spoken loudly enough.&#160; We&#39;re in the same boat.</p>
<p>One thing binds us all together: we live in a more or less silent universe.&#160; Let&#39;s admit it!&#160; It&#39;s probably more silent than religious people say it is, and less silent than atheists say it is: but it is a universe in which someone can cry out to an invisible God and not receive any reply.&#160; It&#39;s a universe in which <em>someone else</em> always seems to be experiencing the miracles, and in which cries of &#39;It&#39;s a miracle!&#39; sometimes seem obscene in the face of so many unanswered prayers.&#160; As Sheri <a href="http://anitalmidah.vox.com/library/post/the-meaning-of-god.html">put it recently</a> on her blog, &#39;Do you really believe the Sudanese don&#39;t pray?&#39;&#160; </p>
<p>In the face of this divine silence, we can never be anything more than co-seekers, and this should give us solidarity.</p>
<p>This seekers&#39; solidarity&#160;should be the basis of every discussion about doctrine.&#160; Moreover, it should be the basis of our communion with each other.&#160; We should always be willing to&#160;at least imagine what might crouch behind the arras of a person&#39;s theological position, the stories behind the convictions.&#160; We should declare at the beginning of each exchange: <em>We are on the same side</em>.&#160; <em>Let&#39;s end this exchange having gained an even greater sense of solidarity, irrespective of whether we move closer to an actual agreement.</em>&#160; It&#39;s worth a try, isn&#39;t it?</p>
<p>Maybe if we achieved real solidarity in the face of God&#39;s silence, we&#39;d discover that the possiblity of creating solidarity is why God opted to refuse to arbitrate on so many issues in the first place.&#160; </p>
<p>Maybe God&#39;s silence is a necessary <em>condition</em> of human solidarity.&#160; Maybe the compassion we might feel towards our fellow seekers is the&#160;thing that we, as seekers, are supposed to find.</p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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        </content> 
    <category term="solidarity" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/solidarity/" label="solidarity" /> 
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    <category term="unanswered prayer" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/unanswered+prayer/" label="unanswered prayer" /> 
    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>a visit to my old neighborhood</title>   
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="a visit to my old neighborhood" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398e52f09000500fa967febe10003.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-17T20:32:45Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-18T08:10:27Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Nick</name>
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        <p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Fellow <a href="http://treasureeverywhereblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/brighten-my-northern-sky.html"><span style="COLOR: #333333">Nick Drake</span></a> fan Scott Small over on <a href="http://scottsmall.vox.com/"><span style="COLOR: #333333">Not In Me</span></a> has been so kind (or imprudent) as to let me&#160;post some reflections&#160;on heaven and suburbia&#160;on his upliftingly lovely blog <a href="http://treasureeverywhereblog.blogspot.com/"><span style="COLOR: #333333">There&#39;s Treasure Everywhere</span></a>.&#160; If you&#39;re feeling whimsical please do pop over and give it a read, as well as the other posts there,&#160;and grace us with your thoughts!</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Ta,</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Nick.</span></p>
<p>
<p><a href="http://treasureeverywhereblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/visit-to-my-old-neighborhood.html"><strong></strong></a></p><a href="http://treasureeverywhereblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/visit-to-my-old-neighborhood.html"></a>
<p>&#160;</p>
<p><a href="http://treasureeverywhereblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/visit-to-my-old-neighborhood.html">click here for<strong> a visit to my old neighborhood</strong></a></p></p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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        </content> 
    <category term="nick drake" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/nick+drake/" label="nick drake" /> 
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    <category term="not in me" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/not+in+me/" label="not in me" /> 
    <category term="there&#39;s treasure everywhere" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/there's+treasure+everywhere/" label="there&#39;s treasure everywhere" /> 
    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>laws of nature pt 2: those naïve pagans!</title>   
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="laws of nature pt 2: those naïve pagans!" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398e52f09000500fa967ecaa20002.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-16T11:03:14Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-19T08:28:28Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Nick</name>
            <uri>http://thetoothlessfundamentalist.vox.com/?_c=feed-atom-full</uri>
        </author>
    
        
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                <div class="enclosure-asset-name"><a href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/photo/6a00e398e52f09000500fa967ecb0d0002.html" title="Pagan scientist">Pagan scientist</a></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I was mad about mythology as a teenager, and considered myself a sophisticated pagan after the model of <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/202-4806408-1155847?%5Fencoding=UTF8&amp;search-type=ss&amp;index=books-uk&amp;field-author=Murry%20Hope">Murry Hope</a>, all of whose books I’d read and mildly understood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>If Science had no way to talk about the cosmic intelligence I witnessed in the eternal struggle between <a href="http://thetoothlessfundamentalist.vox.com/library/post/the-laws-of-nature-pt-1-birds-and-tortoises.html"><span style="COLOR: #333333">birds and tortoises</span></a>, then Murry’s mythology and magic did.&#160; Indeed, the fact that ancient cultures saw their gods as animating different aspects of nature seemed to me a validation of ancient thinking.&#160; To describe natural phenomena in anthropomorphic terms is to affirm something obviously true: that humans themselves belong to the realm of natural phenomena, and that every quality we think of as peculiarly human is also, in some way, writ large in nature as a whole.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">&#160; </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">Apparently, though, it was primitive to ascribe human qualities to nature, nature being, all said, a bunch of molecules moving around.&#160; On the other hand, it was perfectly scientific to describe every aspect of the human experience in terms of a bunch of molecules moving around.&#160; Perfectly acceptable, that is, to my second year English teacher, who first got me thinking about this odd way of thinking.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">&#160; </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">Our English teacher had once been a nun and now she was, like many teachers, a secular humanist.&#160; Unlike most secular humanist teachers, though, she was a proselytising humanist, the kind who would scrap a lesson on Wilfred Owen and instead give a slide show introducing us to humanist ethics.&#160; Her lecture on the finality of death made several pupils weep.&#160; We all suspected that we would have liked her more if we’d known her back when she was a nun.&#160; Partly this was because she wore a hairpiece, and we thought it funny to speculate that her autobiography could have been titled <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">A Wig and a Prayer</em>.&#160; But, also, there was only so much raw reductionist materialism a bunch of children like us could take.&#160; When you are a young person and the glorious adventure of your life is still spread before you, barely sniffed at, you don’t want someone in a wig telling you that it has absolutely no meaning save that which you pretend it has.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">&#160; </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">One Summer day when we all wanted to go home she looked at us, this zoo-enclosure of adolescent humans simmering with boredom and various lusts on our sweaty plastic chairs, and she told us that the only reason humans loved each other was chemicals.&#160; I even remember the name of one of the love-chemicals: vasopressin.&#160; Apparently it was vasopressin that stopped me from loving anyone else while I was fixated on Michelle Harkness.&#160; Another time she told us that, ‘from the point of view of nature’, there was no division or distinction between each of us and our school-books and the ceiling and the air: all was a continuum of molecules, and if you searched for anything else amidst the molecules, you were guaranteed to find nothing, not even your own self.&#160; The personality, free-will, God, all that stuff belonged to the realm of ideas.&#160; ‘Maturity,’ she said, ‘is learning to admit that ideas are not real things.’</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">&#160; </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">Our English teacher would have seen in my dealings with ancient deities an attempt to personally drag the world back into the cruel and haunted darkness of superstition and witchery.&#160; She had nothing but scorn for primitive, pre-scientific notions of gods who caused hurricanes with their anger.&#160; But I thought that those primitives had a point.&#160; For a start, the gods never really represented to ancient people mere links in the material causal chain; they represented the imperceptible stuff going on behind events; they provided an interface between natural phenomena and human values.&#160; (That’s why sun gods Ra and Apollo didn’t look much like the sun.)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>A myth about moral order could also be a myth about cosmic order and political order and the lunar calendar, as well as containing some good corn recipes.&#160; But, more important, if human emotions are just physical and biological and chemical events, and elemental cataclysms are just physical and biological and chemical events, then what is wrong with describing one in terms of the other?&#160; My teacher thought that human subjective phenomena and natural objective phenomena were ultimately the same thing; but she laughed at the ancients, who said that human subjective phenomena and natural objective phenomena were ultimately the same thing.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">&#160;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><strong><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Anyone with</span></strong><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> a passing acquaintance with Kant and Schopenhauer will have heard of the distinction between <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">phenomena</em> – objects in the world of experience – and <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">noumena</em> – things as they are ‘in themselves,’ quite apart from how they look, smell, taste, sound and feel, and quite apart from the categories of understanding that the human mind imposes (including time, space and causality).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>For Kant, it is impossible to know what a thing is ‘like’ in itself.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>(Berkeley, of course, argued that it doesn’t exist ‘in itself,’ outside our experience – only experience exists; the content and substance of experience are the same thing.)<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>For Schopenhauer, there is one crucial exception to the law of the unknowablility of noumena: <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">each one of us </em>is a ‘thing-in-itself’, and as we are self-conscious, we have some kind of experience of at least one thing-in-itself.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">&#160;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There’s a parallel here with what the ancients were doing when they saw intelligent agency lurking behind the observable universe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The ancients could observe the universe, as can we; and like us, they knew of one thing that does not belong purely to the realm of the observable: the <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">experience</em> of being a conscious, thinking agent.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>So when faced with the question of what exists behind, or guides, physical phenomena, their answer was, in effect: ‘The only other thing that we know for sure exists – subjective consciousness’.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>When the ancients described the inner nature of things in terms of intelligence, consciousness, thought, even <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">emotion</em>, they were building a picture of the universe with materials they had ‘to hand’, as it were.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>That’s not as naïve, or as unscientific, as my English teacher thought.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>If you disallow that move, then you’re left with the view that the inner nature of things is unknowable; you’re left explaining objective phenomena in terms of other objective phenomena, without ever getting <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">behind</em> the phenomena.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>If you’re going to leave a gap that big,&#160;someone&#39;s always going to try to fit some kind of deity back into it…</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">(<a href="http://thetoothlessfundamentalist.vox.com/library/post/the-laws-of-nature-pt-1-birds-and-tortoises.html"><span style="COLOR: #333333">click here for laws of nature pt 1</span></a>)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%">&#160;</p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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        </content> 
    <category term="science" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/science/" label="science" /> 
    <category term="nature" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/nature/" label="nature" /> 
    <category term="paganism" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/paganism/" label="paganism" /> 
    <category term="pagans" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/pagans/" label="pagans" /> 
    <category term="phenomena" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/phenomena/" label="phenomena" /> 
    <category term="kant" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/kant/" label="kant" /> 
    <category term="schopenhauer" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/schopenhauer/" label="schopenhauer" /> 
    <category term="laws of nature" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/laws+of+nature/" label="laws of nature" /> 
    <category term="god of the gaps" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/god+of+the+gaps/" label="god of the gaps" /> 
    <category term="wicker man" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/wicker+man/" label="wicker man" /> 
    <category term="noumena" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/noumena/" label="noumena" /> 
    <category term="murry hope" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/murry+hope/" label="murry hope" /> 
    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>Happy Parent #1 Day</title>   
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="Happy Parent #1 Day" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398aad266000500fad6916b790004.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-14T22:51:43Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-21T00:21:06Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Judy</name>
            <uri>http://mylifeishidwithchrist.vox.com/?_c=feed-atom-full</uri>
        </author>
    
        
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        <p><em><span style="font-size: 1.25em;">Along with being German and Dutch, I&#39;m part political-activist.&#160; Below is something I received from the Family Research Council that ought be of concern to parents/families everywhere.&#160; What happens in California often filters down the line to other states, so be prepared...this is a taste of things to come after same-sex marriage (if passed).</p><p>Actually, when things like this happen, it&#39;s like confirmation that Jesus is returning very soon...so we know God&#39;s in ultimate control of everything and won&#39;t let anything happen that isn&#39;t in His plan. Yet in Luke 19:13, the parable of the 10 servants, Jesus exhorts them to &quot;Occupy till I come.&quot;</p><p>Can you imagine growing up
with Parent #1 and Parent #2 instead of Mom and Dad!!&#160; How impersonal!!&#160;
How could this be dealt with psychologically?<br />
We should occupy until He comes...Let&#39;s pray and ask God to draw all
those involved to Himself for salvation, give them a change of heart,
and intervene by raising up people to fight changes like this or
perhaps replacing the California Supreme Court judges....however God
leads you to pray.<br /></span></em><br /><u><strong>Happy Parent #1 Day</strong></u><br /><p>Honor thy Mother and Father should be the simplest of the Ten
Commandments to follow, yet as a society we are failing to do so. In
California we
told, by order of four activist judges, that having both a mother and a
father is completely unnecessary in bringing up a child. &quot;Such roles of
a Mom
and Dad are antiquated&quot; imply these judges, and they can be replaced by
Parent #1 and Parent #2, regardless of gender. As in most families, my
mom
and dad still play very significant and unique roles in my life. What
they have taught me--and continue to teach me--will be passed on to my
children
and grandchildren. Probably unaware of the irony, the California
Supreme Court has ruled that this coming Monday, the day after Father&#39;s
Day,
California will put its official stamp of approval on the intentional
creation of permanently fatherless (or motherless) families. If it
stands, this
ruling will effectively eliminate the true meaning of Father&#39;s Day,
which is to honor the men in our lives who have played a unique and
truly
irreplaceable role. FRC is hoping to drive this point home in ads
running across the state of California this weekend. We encourage you
to look for
them in newspapers throughout the state! For those of you who would
like to get more involved in the debate, visit <a href="http://www.frc.org/marriage" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.frc.org/marriage</a>,
which will be continually updated with the latest news on marriage
protection efforts and
analysis on how California&#39;s crisis affects your state. In the
meantime, please enjoy this Father&#39;s Day, and if you have the ability,
let your dad
know that you love and appreciate him.
<br /><img height="12" width="200" /><br /><strong><span style="color: #000000">Additional Resources</span></strong> <br /><img height="1" width="10" /><a href="http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK08F36&amp;f=WA08F28" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Get involved in
protecting marriage</a> <br /><img height="1" width="10" /><a href="http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK08F40&amp;f=WA08F28" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">FRC&#39;s Father&#39;s Day
ad for California [PDF]</a> <br /><img height="5" width="15" /><br /></p><br /> </p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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        </content> 
    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>News to Note, June 14, 2008  - Answers in Genesis</title>   
        <rvw:rating>60</rvw:rating> 
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="News to Note, June 14, 2008  - Answers in Genesis" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00d09e596f55be2b00fa967eeed10003.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-14T18:39:09Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-14T18:39:26Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>gavinovz</name>
            <uri>http://itsgavino.vox.com/?_c=feed-atom-full</uri>
        </author>
    
        
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    <entry>
        <title>Lucky Trinity!</title>   
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="Lucky Trinity!" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398e52f09000500fad68fe4200005.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
        <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Lucky Trinity!" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398e52f09000500fad68fe4200005.html?_c=feed-atom-full#comments" /> 
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        <published>2008-06-12T16:05:07Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-12T16:11:42Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Nick</name>
            <uri>http://thetoothlessfundamentalist.vox.com/?_c=feed-atom-full</uri>
        </author>
    
        
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            <![CDATA[
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                <div class="enclosure-asset-name"><a href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/photo/6a00e398e52f09000500fad690c4d30004.html" title="Me at school">Me at school</a></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">When you are a teenager, your personality seems like something separate from you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>You are aware that you are a person who experiences things, but you are also aware that the person you are is one of the things you experience - the most immediate thing, in fact, and among the most alien.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Your image – the way you seem, especially to yourself – is at the same time something you are, something you experience, and something you have a particular relationship with.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Some people hate the person they see themselves as being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Some people love that person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The kind of relationship you have with yourself determines what kind of person you are, and the kind of person you are determines what kind of person you are, and the kind of person you see yourself as being - or think others you think others see you as being - determines what kind of person you are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>It is a complicated business, being a person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The complexities are highlighted in youth.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">&#160;</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">By age fourteen I neither hated nor liked my self-image; I had no fixed ideas about what kind of person I was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Consequently I never knew how to act in any situation. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160;</span>For many years this lack of persona was like a living death, only worse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>At least real zombies are <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">supposed</em> to act like animate cadavers – it’s their <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">job</em> - but I assumed that everybody expected me to display the characteristics of the living.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>To meet their unspoken demands I felt pressured to invent characteristics from one moment to the next.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>It was exhausting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Sometimes I wished I could view myself from the outside, in action, during those rare times when I was not consciously trying to act like some character I’d seen in a film, so I could see if I had traits I didn’t know about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Once I considered asking someone close to me - my mother, for example, to describe me in, say, five words - so I could have some idea about who I was.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>But I didn’t have the nerve to ask.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>It did not seem preposterous to imagine that she would have had me committed.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">Whenever I had the television to myself at home, I would watch videos of films my family had taped from the telly, and I’d wonder which of the characters I could profitably become.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>One of my favourite films was a comedy teen-movie called <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Sure Thing</em>, about a cheeky but loveable rogue who somehow wins the heart of a beautiful but stuck-up girl.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>I often felt I would make a great cheeky guy, and would write lists of the cheeky things that the cheeky guy did, so I could do them too.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>But then I’d watch <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Breakfast Club</em>, which featured a guy who was cool and moody and wore big boots and lots of layers of grungy clothing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>After a few minutes of watching that, I wouldn’t be so sure about being cheeky.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>I’d consider being brash and smart-mouthed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>But then I would watch my dad’s copy of <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">First Blood</em>, about a quiet but psychopathic soldier called John Rambo, and then it would be time to walk the dog and I still wouldn’t know who I was, and anyway, Rambo was not the best role model for a skinny boy who did not own a machine gun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160;</span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">At school, I would ask myself from one moment to the next what such-and-such a character would do in my situation, a policy that usually resulted in paralysis.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">My mother didn’t approve of me trying to model myself on characters from films.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>She always said to me: Just be yourself.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">What on earth did <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">that</em> mean?</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">&#160;</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span style="font-size: small"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;">God, of</span></strong><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"> course, did not have identity crises.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; Lucky God, I thought.&#160; </span>The Christian doctrine of the Trinity came to represent, to me, the doctrine of an enviably healthy personality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Like me, God was conscious of himself; unlike me, he knew everything about himself, and did not have to wonder whether to emulate Rambo.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Like me, God had a relationship with his self-image, but unlike me, his was positive, because he liked his self-image and didn’t have to change it every day.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">The bible told me that Christ was ‘the image of the invisible God’, and though I didn’t understand this, I liked to think of God in the following, possibly blasphemous terms.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>God (I thought) looks at himself and sees somebody perfect; but in a sort of shy, bashful way, he refuses to take the credit for himself, and so honours his marvellous identity as though from a distance.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>I could relate to this idea because sometimes, at night, I would talk to myself as though ‘myself’ was a separate person who had deep wisdom and could offer me advice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The relationship between God and his image was like that, I assumed, only <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">even better</em>, because God’s image, about which God knows everything, actually possesses laudable traits.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>This relationship God has with himself is, therefore, not self-love, but <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">other</em>-love; and as God’s image is one with him and shares all his attributes, including intelligence and other things, his image can reciprocate that love.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>This relationship, as an elderly guest preacher at my church once said, is the original, primordial Father-Son relationship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>(You could say that creation’s relationship with itself constitutes a cosmic Mother-Child relationship, but that would take us way off topic.)</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">Of course, we can conceive of a God who doesn’t have this ‘other’ focus and who therefore is a different kind of deity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>The particular mode of the Christian God’s relationship with his image, with its other-focus, defines what sort of person the Christian God is – defines him, as the apostle John says, as love<em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> </em>itself, purely giving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>This distinctive relationship, itself a reality infused with all the attributes of God, constitutes the third ‘person’ of the Trinity (the third hypostasis, actually, to use the proper Patristic term, though I hadn’t read much Cappadocian theology by age fourteen): the Holy Spirit.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">As a child I had often thought that God must get lonely.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>I felt sorry for him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>But the more I learned about the idea of the Trinity, the more I realised, to my relief, that I had been wrong; God was not a solitary block but a family - a self-contained family that was so close-knit that it constituted one being.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>God was a person in and of himself because, like me, he was tripartite, a complex unity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>Unless God contained relationships within his own being, as it were, then no personal characteristics, like love or mercy or wrath or whatever, could be said to absolutely belong to him; in which case, until he created beings who he could love, have mercy upon or get angry with, he would possess only a <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">potential</em> personality.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>To become personal, such a God would require us.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">Ironically, the doctrine of the Trinity, which seems to some people like a pagan import (as though pagans didn’t at least subconsciously suspect that personalities are tripartite) or a baffling complication (see the Qur&#39;an’s flustered objections), is the monotheistic doctrine par excellence; only Trinitarianism explains how a God could possibly be a fully-realised person without having to create other persons to be personal towards.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small">Incidentally, one of the questions on our R.E. exam the following year was ‘Explain the Trinity’.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; Explain the Trinity!&#160; </span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span></span></span>&#160;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: &#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span>I wrote four pages, misspelt Saint Athanasius, and got a C-.</span></span></p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
    <a href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00e398e52f09000500fad68fe4200005.html?_c=feed-atom-full#comments">Read and post comments</a>   |   
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        </content> 
    <category term="trinity" scheme="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/tags/trinity/" label="trinity" /> 
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    </entry> 
    
    <entry>
        <title>Faith - What a Gift! </title>   
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="Faith - What a Gift! " href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00f30f58ee96000100fa967d813a0002.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-12T00:21:30Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-13T14:36:42Z</updated>
    
        <author>
            <name>Kathyjoyful2day</name>
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        <p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">Faith - I often took it for granted! Is that true of you too? </span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">It certainly is important to move in faith nowadays ~ </span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">with all that </span><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">is happening in this life. </span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">Without faith we cannot please God. Lately I understand that more than ever! </span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">Keep the faith! It will bring great rewards. Hope you enjoy my painting with&#160;song/prayer. &#160;</span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692; FONT-SIZE: 1.56em">Blessings to you friends,</span></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692">Kathreen </span></p>
<p>&#160;</p>

    
    
    
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<p></p>
<p><span style="color: #144692"></span>&#160;</p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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    <entry>
        <title>Brannon Howse is a liar?</title>   
        <rvw:rating>80</rvw:rating> 
        <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" title="Brannon Howse is a liar?" href="http://apologetics.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00d09e596f55be2b00fae8c20074000b.html?_c=feed-atom-full" />  
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        <published>2008-06-11T18:29:36Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-11T18:29:50Z</updated>
    
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        <p>have happen at that store in Collierville and now Brannon is receiving e-mails that he is a liar. </p><p>So, Brannon&#39;s guest on today&#39;s radio program was Gwen, the mom of three that saw and heard everything that happen to Brannon Howse and his son inside the Barnes and Noble in Collierville. Did you really expect B&amp;N employees to keep reporting the truth when it could hurt business or after management got to them? </p><p>Are you ready to take a stand for what is right even if it means your integrity, character and good name will be attacked? America is going down the tubes because people have lost the courage of their convictions to stand alone and stand firm under attack. Listen to today&#39;s show and get an update of how this mad dad is pressing on and warning parents about the potential harm to children no matter how many names he is called. <br />&#160;<br />&#160;<br />Click here to listen to Brannon&#39;s Monday evening broadcast. Please send to all your friends in town....Thank you.&#160; <br />http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/radio-show-episode.php?EpisodeID=6555</p><p>&#160;<br />Here is a link to the book that was laid open twice in one night at the Barnes and Noble store. Be sure to read the description of the book. <br />http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ultimate-Gay-Sex/Michael-Thomas-Ford/e/9780789496973/?itm=1<br />&#160;<br />Brannon was a guest on 7 radio programs today, 5 of them national shows with a combined total of more than 650 stations. We have received phone calls and numerous e-mails from moms and grandmothers from all over the country that mirror very closely what Brannon has reported here in town.<br />&#160;<br />Here is one of those e-mails. </p><p>Please help me to contact, or give my information to Brannon Howse. I had the exact thing happen to my triplet 11 year old boys, while we were walking into the &#39;children&#39;s&#39; section of the store!! It was right there near the children&#39;s books, displayed on a shelf at children&#39;s eye level...books with pictures of men having gay sex together...my boys turned white, and ran to get me. They will NEVER get their innocence back, after seeing that...This is horrible, and when I complained, even to the upper corporation... they did nothing! I would like Brannon Howse, from Collierville, TN to contact me so we can do something about it together! My name is Dena I live in Flower Mound, TX (phone number and e-mail address removed) I PRAY you give him my contact information to help fight this evil! Please help! <br /></p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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    <entry>
        <title>toothless Q&amp;A - faith and reason</title>   
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        <published>2008-06-11T14:57:16Z</published>
        <updated>2008-06-12T16:02:23Z</updated>
    
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span><em>Question: Isn’t it always irrational to accept a claim ‘on faith,’ rather than on the basis of evidence?</em></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Answer: Sometimes exercising provisional faith is the most rational way to test a claim. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">(All faith is provisional at first, by the way).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span><em>Sub-question: ‘Provisional faith’?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&#160; </span>What the hell is that?</em></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">A: It’s the kind of faith you exercise when you approach the question of God’s existence by asking God whether he exists, rather than trying to prove his existence or non-existence with formal logic, mathematics, or half-remembered quotes from Nietzsche.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">&#160;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">It’s also the kind of faith I exercise when I try to find out what my wife thinks by asking her, rather than utilising the more ‘rational’ method of putting Sodium Pentothal in her Ovaltine.</span></p>   <p style="clear:both;"> 
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